tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.comments2023-11-03T03:59:28.260-07:00Story SeerLizhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-24798640653543070592022-03-01T08:28:18.299-08:002022-03-01T08:28:18.299-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.jachinwaaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09425721326215677015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-54843807318679255952017-12-25T04:10:05.738-08:002017-12-25T04:10:05.738-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Petersonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09889148403145412096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-78729078757565513472016-09-22T05:29:15.941-07:002016-09-22T05:29:15.941-07:00That makes a ton of sense. It's hard to feel w...That makes a ton of sense. It's hard to feel weird about a symbol of your country's military success (especially when that success comes against your traditional enemy).Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-13619803300135988832016-09-19T21:33:26.951-07:002016-09-19T21:33:26.951-07:00Part of the re-mythologising of the bow as more he...Part of the re-mythologising of the bow as more heroic probably comes from the development of the English archers with the longbow. As they get really tied in to the English sense of national security, any stigma begins to disappear. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03385703152137269192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-2443389905708655732016-02-28T23:42:27.879-08:002016-02-28T23:42:27.879-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01581157346472229969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-319946952834162592015-06-27T05:24:55.091-07:002015-06-27T05:24:55.091-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Dorothy Greeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17024699161859500763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-50717018197860125322014-08-21T11:27:35.242-07:002014-08-21T11:27:35.242-07:00"I've never before read any version of th..."I've never before read any version of that story that summons empathy for the Minotaur, let alone encourages people to identify with it."<br /><br />I'm commenting further because your original post struck a tone to which I resonated. And every tone has overtones. So here I am. After this I'm going to move on to your archive, because your thoughts are so well organized and your points of view help me to mine my own.<br /><br />Healing from traumatic experience seems to require a personal confrontation with a kind of gatekeeper at the heart of ourselves: life circumstances lead some there through an obvious and deep transgression of self. There the dilemma of all humans lies: the beast within. Odd now that I'm thinking not so much of identifying with the "Bull", as in sympathy, but in empathy with the human condition. The raped, or those that feel transgressed in any way, in order to recover imo, must also swallow a pill that has the effect of recalling its bitterness in the process. The only real recourse is to crossover to ones King hood (male or female, but not about gender really). But how can you tell the transgressed, that who, or what they really are, can never actually be transgressed?<br /><br />I'm thinking now that the words I used, "the obliteration of sovereign self" may be just that same "Bull" that dispatches the youths to the semblance of the death of self, being ceremoniously vanquished, instead of indicating the path that all must take, for the full flowering of their potential as humans: the apex of creation..<br /><br />Ah. If we could only remember our Ariadnes, having "total agency in" our own destinies, offering that slight and consistent tug that instills the virtue of courage and recall of our eternal worthiness, regardless of the vicissitudes of space and time. <br /><br />The Greeks, in my opinion, were a real Culture, upper case C emphasized. Their mythology is so intimate. I'm still on the journey.<br /><br />Thank you for being.<br /><br /> Harmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01953497242542372429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-33230817805502672112014-08-20T07:54:18.538-07:002014-08-20T07:54:18.538-07:00Sorry for the delay - I didn't want to reply u...Sorry for the delay - I didn't want to reply until I'd read the Hawthorne. But his description of the Bull is marvelous. I've never before read any version of that story that summons empathy for the Minotaur, let alone encourages people to identify with it. Thanks so much for putting me on to that!<br /><br />I do agree with your idea that the Crete adventure is Theseus' apprenticeship in being a king. Between his experience of bad kingship (Minos), his taking responsibility for his people, and the lesson in restraint and even loss that he gets from Ariadne, he's gotten the basics all in one go. In a way, Aegeus has to die when Theseus gets back; having served his apprenticeship, it's time for Theseus to be king. (And as long as we're trading Theseus recommendations, Mary Renault's "The King Must Die" is a great counterpoint to Hawthorne; they make the same point about Theseus discovering himself as a king, but in very different ways.)<br /><br />I loved, by the way, the fact that in Hawthorne, Ariadne has total agency in her own destiny. This is the only version I've ever read where she doesn't flee with Theseus, and I absolutely adore that she gets to save the Athenians AND choose to stay in Crete on her own terms. Hawthorne's Ariadne is the total antithesis of poor trapped Europa. It's pretty magnificent.Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-73184657297590527652014-08-17T02:05:16.367-07:002014-08-17T02:05:16.367-07:00Thanks for your response.
Have you read Nathanie...Thanks for your response. <br /><br />Have you read Nathaniel Hawthorne's story of Theseus. You might find the description of the Bull (and narrator's asides) interesting if you have not. I read it for the first time today after reading your response. I tend to read some works from inside, i.e, as essential aspects and projections of my psyche. Means I play the mythological gods and full cast of characters (extras included). I've found it helps to decide what to contemplate further, and what to discard as non internalizable (word?): those one's are just for kicks.<br /><br />I do think now that the confrontation with the Bull was Theseus' confrontation with<br />his future self as a King: being just or unjust. Along with all of his virtues, there existed the possibility that truly being in a position of power might "go to his head" so to speak, the King of Crete was the perfect archetype. The maze, I don't know, being the Self? But not to worry, he lopped of that possibilities head. Kind of reminded me of the last thing the Buddha had to face before his enlightenment.Harmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01953497242542372429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-53343950064208300182014-08-16T06:56:53.142-07:002014-08-16T06:56:53.142-07:00"No matter that you, your sense of sovereign ..."No matter that you, your sense of sovereign self, are obliterated in the process." You said in one sentence what I took the whole blog to say. Thank you for that.<br /><br />I also love your point on "mesmerism by charisma," which too often successfully masks predatory behavior (and in terms of myths still does). A photogenic attacker with a good PR team can get away with a frightening amount of abuse, be he OJ Simpson or the king of the gods. It's much easier to gossip and ogle than to pay attention to what's actually happening.<br /><br />Your comments on the Bull are making me think of the prevalence of bull symbols in Minoan Crete, most obviously for Theseus and the Labyrinth. In addition to Europa being surrounded by a culture that quickly deified the animal (not just the god) that raped her, I wonder about the power, both symbolically and sexually, that transfers from the Bull to Theseus, who himself is no slouch when it comes to virility. Does he inherit by conquest the mantle of the Bull? Maybe the Minotaur's death at his hands is a metaphorical rape of the Bull (as you point out, in terms of power, which is the key to the whole horror anyway), of the mainland retaking the agency that was stripped from Europa. (In which case, it's another over-the-top vengeance that comes too late.)<br /><br />Thanks so much for your comment, and for making me think of interpretations that never occurred to me before!Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-42452969075110281722014-08-15T15:39:09.250-07:002014-08-15T15:39:09.250-07:00I ended up here while doing research on the philos...I ended up here while doing research on the philosopher Chrysippus. Just though I'd comment on this very well considered and written blog that enlightened my interest in mythology. I hear you. The message has comes through loud and clear.<br /><br />"colenso" offered the slant to the story that is still called, "The Rape Of Europa: "The bull approached Europa, who was entranced by the bull's size, beauty and apparent gentleness. When the bull knelt on the sand beside her, Europa mounted the bull." A slant that sounds much like a kind of "grooming" on steroids. <br /><br />The Bull, as magnificent as it was, is still the symbol of (P)ower. A power introduced into the play of human relations as one will over another's. The fundamental definition of rape.<br /><br />And the story includes the isolation of Europa from her usual environs of handmaidens and family. All of this is a perfect example of mesmerism by charisma gone decrepit: often practiced by rapists and pedophiles.<br /><br />Mr. Akin's slant (backed up by pseudoscience) suited his and his party's empty agenda. If you don't have substance, make it up. And look, you can get a baby out it that may rule the world. No matter that you, your sense of sovereign self, are obliterated in the process. How criminally obtuse!<br /><br />Thank you for "filling-the-spaces" so passionately and creatively.Harmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01953497242542372429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-52270249871089999892014-08-15T15:26:00.841-07:002014-08-15T15:26:00.841-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Harmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01953497242542372429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-30825498034549951572014-05-22T18:26:27.626-07:002014-05-22T18:26:27.626-07:00I couldn't agree more. It's great to find ...I couldn't agree more. It's great to find another Hephaestus fan! And you're right, he's one of the best role models in mythology in terms of his work ethic and his dedication.<br /><br />I did always get the sense that none of the Greek gods were that into being parents. Demeter stands out because she's the only one who'd shut down the world to get her daughter back. And at least Hera doesn't play favorites - she seems kind of indifferent to all her kids. Silver lining? Sort of?Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-18732695193106310802014-05-22T03:02:20.610-07:002014-05-22T03:02:20.610-07:00I like your statement of Hephaestus, he is truly a...I like your statement of Hephaestus, he is truly an amazing god better than his father, he is neither a cheats or a bit**. His work is amazing and all the god should appreciate his creation.<br />I hate his mother Hera who threw him away, I mean how could she do that to her own child.. but it's all good.. being ugly is tough however that should not let anyone down.. he is the perfect example of .. BIT** please, who care about my outer appearance it should be inside that counts and what I do for living. <br />All the artist should be inspired by him because he is the perfect example of hard working and appreciating that people/god recognising his work and not looking for fame. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17328413742316573171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-90067778410548741812014-04-20T09:01:24.862-07:002014-04-20T09:01:24.862-07:00Not for a second would I dispute that the bow is a...Not for a second would I dispute that the bow is an incredibly formative tool in the development of human society. People from all walks of life have found it not only useful but paradigm-shifting; Agincourt comes to mind, and that's just off the top of my head. (It's also a personal favorite of mine; I can't shoot for crap, but I stand in awe of people who can.)<br /><br />Smearing the bow's place in history wasn't at all my intention. What fascinates me is the spectrum of cultural reactions to a weapon that levels the field like nothing else. You can't ignore the bow once you've gotten it - it's too powerful a tool - but you can choose what stories you tell about it. The sheer range of implications that different cultures have given to this one weapon was the impetus behind this post - that, and the bow's endurance in spite of all the wildly different metaphorical weights it's been forced to carry. If aspersions were cast, they were intended to be cast on the viewpoints that speak for the bow, rather than on the bow itself, which continues to lodge itself in a variety of cultural consciousnesses and create new identities and meanings for itself.Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-20095346336506153392014-04-18T12:12:17.018-07:002014-04-18T12:12:17.018-07:00I have to respectfully disagree. One off-movie doe...I have to respectfully disagree. One off-movie does not a feminine bow make or a cowardly bow make.<br /><br />The bow and arrow earned its rightful place in the history of humans as tools of war and survival.<br /><br />If we label the warrior based on method and weapon of choice like the archer, we may as well label the gun fighters, snipers, fighter pilots, terrorists, etc., etc.<br /><br />I would rather measure the courage, honor and bravery of a warrior, based not on method and weapon of choice, but how the method and weapon of choice are applied.<br /><br />hiroshisumida6https://www.blogger.com/profile/14865872309644357334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-42128613743181322992013-12-27T00:28:24.909-08:002013-12-27T00:28:24.909-08:00Oh wow. I didn't think I'd get a response....Oh wow. I didn't think I'd get a response. Wondrous day.<br /><br />Its not as if we never proclaim thanks when we accomplish something. You hear people thank god, the lord, Jesus, and their luck when they pull things off. I would believe in Greek times, they got a lot more credit for their gifts of inspiration. But as you said, modernly we only really refer to them as a passive joke when we want to blame something because they aren't really our goddesses anymore.<br /><br />At least not for most of us.Fracturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571668689781226280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-12919158853321265532013-12-26T09:36:19.481-08:002013-12-26T09:36:19.481-08:00*I'm* sorry for just now getting around to rep...*I'm* sorry for just now getting around to replying! I've neglected this blog shamefully all year. But comments always make me happy, even if I'm appallingly bad at getting to them.<br /><br />It's true that the Muses are mostly benevolent - certainly they're always referenced as desirable - and I quite like the idea of the artist being fed something good without even realizing it wasn't his or her own idea. But a muse very rarely gets the credit for a good idea, regardless of whether the muse or the artist had it. Failures, yes, absolutely - as you say, a frustrated artist can very easily blame a lack of ideas or a badly executed idea on an uncooperative muse, and from there it's a downward drop into the pit of self-doubt. But when an artist knocks it out of the park and knows it, that's all the artist (at least in his or her mind/presentation). "I had this great idea." "Finally I got it to work." "I agonized over this for months, but I figured it out eventually." An artist who blames a muse for failure might even be more likely to credit himself or herself for success, just because that confidence boost is so needed.<br /><br />(And then the muse sighs and gets coffee with her friends and shares another irritating work story. "Oh, honey. Again? I'm sorry.")Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-67721055837358975932013-12-23T10:22:37.797-08:002013-12-23T10:22:37.797-08:00I felt so grown up when, lo these many moons, I sw...I felt so grown up when, lo these many moons, I switched my favorite-goddess allegiance to Athena instead of Artemis. At this point I can't even decide if I think the treatment of Actaeon or of Medusa is worse. Live, learn, and mourn your childhood ideals, I guess.<br /><br />Also, I would love to read your version of the Medusa story! Always game for revisiting "villains," especially villains whose evil stems directly from their appearance. Heather Dale does a fantastic song about her, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4WCK8P-LHgLizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-33279429580710668332013-12-23T10:11:25.551-08:002013-12-23T10:11:25.551-08:00I agree. Athena in the purest form of Greek myth w...I agree. Athena in the purest form of Greek myth wasn't so wise...and certainly wasn't very noble either. Great article! I have written a version of that myth were Medusa is not the monster. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02130937350473674314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-91041465378954803572013-09-25T11:26:30.247-07:002013-09-25T11:26:30.247-07:00I wouldn't say you own a muse. You don't o...I wouldn't say you own a muse. You don't own a king when you call him "My Liege". 'My' is associative. <br /><br />'My friend', 'My Lady', 'My God'. All can refer to people you simply know or who are actually stationed above you in life.<br /><br />These <i>Benevolent</i> beings can deny you inspiration when you need it most and force it on you to keep you going when you just want to sleep.<br /><br />We're just mouth pieces; mere puppets on their strings.<br /><br />Children being fed answers and pretending we figured it all out on our own.<br /><br />So from my point of view I wouldn't call 'having' a muse Narcissism. I'd call it poor confidence. An artist shelling their failures and success on something else, perhaps rightfully so.<br /><br />------------------------------------<br /><br />Sorry for commenting on something a year later and with a 'in character' account. I don't have any that aren't.Fracturehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571668689781226280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-69500783040484308712013-04-20T16:09:27.723-07:002013-04-20T16:09:27.723-07:00Snake = many, many points to you. :) And yes, he a...Snake = many, many points to you. :) And yes, he absolutely is legitimately dangerous, especially once he sets his sights on Jasmine. But he does it without a shred of actual physical attraction to her - he calls her "the shrew" even as he hatches his plan to marry her - and he enacts his plans through subterfuge, disguise, and lots of mooks, which are more traditionally feminine tactics than Aladdin's head-on assaults. Even his failed wish to make Jasmine fall in love with him comes not from thwarted lust, but from simple expedience (keeping her compliant) and the knowledge that it'll really mindfuck her as punishment for disobeying him. (Also, I would argue that the deliberate exotic Otherness renders Jasmine's purity relatively moot - we WANT our Arabian princesses bare-midriffed and sexually adventurous.)<br /><br />I would also say you could make a similar out-of-gender-role analysis of Ursula, who schemes for power and manipulates innocents in a very traditionally masculine way. It says nothing good that both stereotype-tweaking characters are really villainous, but to my mind that's part of their villainy - they challenge the status quo, which is always scary to the mainstream.Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-77921018578556334332013-04-20T12:35:35.890-07:002013-04-20T12:35:35.890-07:00I pretty much agree w/ everything except Jafar as ...I pretty much agree w/ everything except Jafar as effeminate. I don't know what the original sorcerer was like, but omg Jafar is almost entirely a masculine threat. I mean, he's symbolized by a freaking snake. Additionally, his evil sexually aggressive snake-ness is a threat to Jasmine's purity and controls her impotent father. Only Aladdin's safer and whiter and younger masculinity can defeat Jafar. Mizujadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17233866558758957283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-31042650550574044932013-03-05T19:57:21.329-08:002013-03-05T19:57:21.329-08:00Also Macbeth can't be fooled by a mere underli...Also Macbeth can't be fooled by a mere underling. No, he's fooled by witches! And King Lear is just... omg. there is no reason to want to be King Lear.<br /><br />I would absolutely guest write or co-write a blog about anything American with you. Send me an email.<br /><br />I think you're picking the wrong heroes. lol. We don't particularly love any of those characters. On the other hand, we are OBSESSED with people like Babe Ruth and all of John Wayne's characters and Huck Finn, and I think these are all American heroes and icons we worship that have transcended American culture. Mizujadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17233866558758957283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931078954148810179.post-61565195079691303162013-03-05T15:05:04.301-08:002013-03-05T15:05:04.301-08:00Point. No wishy-washy flipflopping for Macbeth. An...Point. No wishy-washy flipflopping for Macbeth. And out of all four, he has the least trouble with his sanity, not that that's saying much.<br /><br />See, now I feel like I should just get you to do a guest post about Icarus, because that's fascinating. And you're right, the American hero really does burn his candle at both ends (or at least the modern American hero). And even Washington has his moment of stupidity-begetting-greatness with that freaking cherry tree.<br /><br />The funny thing comes, I think, in the universality of heroes. And a lot of American heroes just don't translate as heroic outside of the American headspace. Johnny Appleseed just bops along doing his bit of good; it's sweet, but kind of Galahad-ish. Paul Bunyan's incredible feats of strength never strive for anything much beyond his (ironically) small world. John Henry is a classic Icarus in terms of ambition AND tragedy, and he doesn't even prove his larger point; sure, HE can drill faster than the steam engine, but he's a superman and he also DIES doing it. And Gatsby... hoo boy. IS he a hero? He's certainly an Icarus, but there's a certain amount of moral bankruptcy going on that makes him tricky even if you've been raised knowing about the American Dream. It's hard to root for an American hero if he's too good, too troubled, or just too doomed. We can definitely admire their greatness, but they're also not people we'd want to BE, in the end.Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444235737902757507noreply@blogger.com